Comments on: Thesis #24: Civilization has no monopoly on art. http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/ se wo were fi na wosan kofa a yenki Mon, 06 Jul 2009 05:01:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: FRED http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-183021 FRED Sat, 06 Jun 2009 22:19:18 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-183021 If art was play it would nicely fit the ethological following definition: "In ethology, play is an important part of learning in many animals, though it is generally only seen in those species possessing highly complex nervous systems such as mammals and birds."(from wiki) As homo sapiens have such a big complex brain, it's no wonder to me they need to play all life long, therefore art isn't only for children. Stories are supposed to let us remember easily complex historical and mythical events, as such literature (civilised) and story telling (primitive) are fully part of learning processes. Finally if art serves the purpose of conveying cultural symbols (your point about art?) in any given culture, then making and enjoying art is learning (to be part of) that culture. Unlike most mamals, human beings have to learn far more than survival skills but the culture in which they are raised. This could explain why humans need art. If art was play it would nicely fit the ethological following definition: “In ethology, play is an important part of learning in many animals, though it is generally only seen in those species possessing highly complex nervous systems such as mammals and birds.”(from wiki)

As homo sapiens have such a big complex brain, it’s no wonder to me they need to play all life long, therefore art isn’t only for children.
Stories are supposed to let us remember easily complex historical and mythical events, as such literature (civilised) and story telling (primitive) are fully part of learning processes.

Finally if art serves the purpose of conveying cultural symbols (your point about art?) in any given culture, then making and enjoying art is learning (to be part of) that culture.

Unlike most mamals, human beings have to learn far more than survival skills but the culture in which they are raised. This could explain why humans need art.

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By: FRED http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-183020 FRED Sat, 06 Jun 2009 21:48:41 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-183020 I am probably not a human being by your standards. Truth is I can't even understand the concept of "art"...It's as foreign to me as colors to a blind person. Singing is playing with ones own tongue and vocal chords. Dancing is just as running, jumping, swimming or walking: it's playing with ones own limbs and having a bloosh rush in the heart while endorphins are flowing to the brain. Drawing random shapes on the ground, or carving some wood and stones is pure fun! Anything that humans call 'art' is nothing more than kids play to me. I reckon that adding a symbolic dimension to a playfull act was supposed to shape 'art'. But you seem to refute that art is symbolic. If art is not, then I really wonder what is art to human beings? How could it be different from play? I am probably not a human being by your standards. Truth is I can’t even understand the concept of “art”…It’s as foreign to me as colors to a blind person.

Singing is playing with ones own tongue and vocal chords.
Dancing is just as running, jumping, swimming or walking: it’s playing with ones own limbs and having a bloosh rush in the heart while endorphins are flowing to the brain.
Drawing random shapes on the ground, or carving some wood and stones is pure fun!
Anything that humans call ‘art’ is nothing more than kids play to me. I reckon that adding a symbolic dimension to a playfull act was supposed to shape ‘art’. But you seem to refute that art is symbolic.
If art is not, then I really wonder what is art to human beings?
How could it be different from play?

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By: Jason Godesky http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-178473 Jason Godesky Sun, 17 Feb 2008 02:36:34 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-178473 Thanks, jhereg, for pointing out the most obvious fallacy in Adam's post: you can find nice quotes to back up most any position you care to take. They can add some spice as an epigraph, or to give some emotional force to facts you've previously proven, but when you have nothing else, then you fall guilty of empty sophistry. Adam, I find it amusing that you point to Neanderthals to support your claim. This <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3256228.stm" rel="nofollow">crudely sculpted face</a> points to only the most obvious evidence of Neanderthal art. Neanderthals buried their dead after painting their bodies with red ochre and laying them on beds of flower petals. Of course, the earliest art leaves no archaeological trace—songs, stories, etc.—but considering the complex material art they left behind, we have no reason to doubt that they had such things. But I think your argument, like Zerzan's, misses the mark entirely because of its common conflation of <em>our</em> interpretations of art, with <em>the</em> interpretation of art. The idea that art has a symbolic nature does not even monopolize our own, civilized interpretations; indeed, modern art defines itself by the appreciation of art as an object in itself, without any symbolism whatsoever. But more to the point, has anyone ever considered van Gogh's <em>Starry Night</em> a fitting <em>substitute</em> for a night of star-gazing? Van Gogh <em>himself</em> said, "The feeling of the things themselves, for reality, is more important than the feeling for pictures." Yet every extant primitive culture (and, from the available archaeological evidence, every past human culture as well, including those of <em>Homo neandertalensis</em>) deeply values their art. But not as symbolism. They never look to their art as a symbol for their interactions with the world around them, much less as a symbolic substitution for them. Rather, they look to their art as one of the primary means they have to participate in that world. Human songs, music and dance allow them to harmonize with the rhythms of the world around them. They live in a world shot through with artists: bird sing their songs, deer leave their tracks, wolves howl up a symphony at the moon, insects carve sinuous designs into leaves. More than symbolism, more than imitation, human art simply offers a human mode of <em>participation</em> with the world, just as bird art, deer art, wolf art and insect art give those other-than-human persons the means by which <em>they</em> participate with the world. To deny art means denying the example of every functional human culture; it means denying the example of other-than-human cultures around us; it means plucking out our eyes, ripping out our tongues, chopping off our hands, renouncing our humanity, renouncing our participation with the world, and resigning ourselves to some wretched corner of eternal isolation. How about adding <em>that</em> to your list of quotes, eh? Thanks, jhereg, for pointing out the most obvious fallacy in Adam’s post: you can find nice quotes to back up most any position you care to take. They can add some spice as an epigraph, or to give some emotional force to facts you’ve previously proven, but when you have nothing else, then you fall guilty of empty sophistry.

Adam, I find it amusing that you point to Neanderthals to support your claim. This crudely sculpted face points to only the most obvious evidence of Neanderthal art. Neanderthals buried their dead after painting their bodies with red ochre and laying them on beds of flower petals. Of course, the earliest art leaves no archaeological trace—songs, stories, etc.—but considering the complex material art they left behind, we have no reason to doubt that they had such things.

But I think your argument, like Zerzan’s, misses the mark entirely because of its common conflation of our interpretations of art, with the interpretation of art. The idea that art has a symbolic nature does not even monopolize our own, civilized interpretations; indeed, modern art defines itself by the appreciation of art as an object in itself, without any symbolism whatsoever. But more to the point, has anyone ever considered van Gogh’s Starry Night a fitting substitute for a night of star-gazing? Van Gogh himself said, “The feeling of the things themselves, for reality, is more important than the feeling for pictures.”

Yet every extant primitive culture (and, from the available archaeological evidence, every past human culture as well, including those of Homo neandertalensis) deeply values their art. But not as symbolism. They never look to their art as a symbol for their interactions with the world around them, much less as a symbolic substitution for them. Rather, they look to their art as one of the primary means they have to participate in that world. Human songs, music and dance allow them to harmonize with the rhythms of the world around them. They live in a world shot through with artists: bird sing their songs, deer leave their tracks, wolves howl up a symphony at the moon, insects carve sinuous designs into leaves. More than symbolism, more than imitation, human art simply offers a human mode of participation with the world, just as bird art, deer art, wolf art and insect art give those other-than-human persons the means by which they participate with the world.

To deny art means denying the example of every functional human culture; it means denying the example of other-than-human cultures around us; it means plucking out our eyes, ripping out our tongues, chopping off our hands, renouncing our humanity, renouncing our participation with the world, and resigning ourselves to some wretched corner of eternal isolation.

How about adding that to your list of quotes, eh?

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By: jhereg http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-178424 jhereg Thu, 14 Feb 2008 19:42:13 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-178424 "I'd rather be an optimist and be wrong, than a pessimist and be right" And "All we need is love...1969...isn't that annoying?" sorry ;) i just couldn't resist “I’d rather be an optimist and be wrong, than a pessimist and be right”

And

“All we need is love…1969…isn’t that annoying?”

sorry ;) i just couldn’t resist

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By: Adam http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-178421 Adam Thu, 14 Feb 2008 17:03:52 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-178421 "It is part of human nature; it connects us to one another; it is universal. In condemning art, Zerzan condemns us all, just as civilization does." To quote a gangsta: "…the extent to which thought and emotion are tied to symbolism is the measure by which absence fills the inner world and destroys the outer world." And Shreeve: "Neandertals did not paint their caves with the images of animals. But perhaps they had no need to distill life into representations, because its essences were already revealed to their senses. The sign of a running herd was enough to inspire a surging sense of beauty. They had no drums or bone flutes, but they could listen to the booming rhythms of the wind, the earth, and each other’s heartbeats, and be transported." And “When people see some things as beautiful other things become ugly. When people see some things as good other things become bad.” (Tao te Ching) And "Original nature has no opposites. Speech and words are not necessary. Without thinking, all things are exactly as they are. The truth is just like this." And of course "The extent to which thought and emotion are tied to symbolism is the measure by which absence fills the inner world and destroys the outer world." At this point in my life, I couldn't disdain art more. I absolutely hate it. What's needed isn't a half-assed philosophy of art, but a full-assed sociology of art. Zerzan hit that nail right on the head when he said that the extent to which thought and emotion are tied to symbolism is the measure by which absence fills the inner world. Why art? Express what? Erich Fromm said that primitivist religions didn't address "the existential split." That's because they dont need to. Word. “It is part of human nature; it connects us to one another; it is universal. In condemning art, Zerzan condemns us all, just as civilization does.”

To quote a gangsta: “…the extent to which thought and emotion are tied to symbolism is the measure by which absence fills the inner world and destroys the outer world.”

And

Shreeve: “Neandertals did not paint their caves with the images of animals. But perhaps they had no need to distill life into representations, because its essences were already revealed to their senses. The sign of a running herd was enough to inspire a surging sense of beauty. They had no drums or bone flutes, but they could listen to the booming rhythms of the wind, the earth, and each other’s heartbeats, and be transported.”

And

“When people see some things as beautiful other things become ugly. When people see some things as good other things become bad.” (Tao te Ching)

And

“Original nature has no opposites. Speech and words are not necessary. Without thinking, all things are exactly as they are. The truth is just like this.”

And of course

“The extent to which thought and emotion are tied to symbolism is the measure by which absence fills the inner world and destroys the outer world.”

At this point in my life, I couldn’t disdain art more. I absolutely hate it. What’s needed isn’t a half-assed philosophy of art, but a full-assed sociology of art. Zerzan hit that nail right on the head when he said that the extent to which thought and emotion are tied to symbolism is the measure by which absence fills the inner world. Why art? Express what? Erich Fromm said that primitivist religions didn’t address “the existential split.” That’s because they dont need to. Word.

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By: “The Savages are Truly Noble” (The Anthropik Network) http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-99062 “The Savages are Truly Noble” (The Anthropik Network) Thu, 10 May 2007 19:28:37 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-99062 [...] The myth of progress is one far more deserving of our scorn. Where is the evidence for it? Our medicine,50 our knowledge,51 nor even our art52 can truly be said to have advanced beyond what it was 10,000 years ago. Yet for this way of life we suffer an inferior quality of life, even by our own skewed standards.53 [...] […] The myth of progress is one far more deserving of our scorn. Where is the evidence for it? Our medicine,50 our knowledge,51 nor even our art52 can truly be said to have advanced beyond what it was 10,000 years ago. Yet for this way of life we suffer an inferior quality of life, even by our own skewed standards.53 […]

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By: Basic Primtivism Refresher (The Anthropik Network) http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-22868 Basic Primtivism Refresher (The Anthropik Network) Mon, 18 Sep 2006 17:54:15 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-22868 [...] What is the "baby" we should be careful to not throw out here? Is it art? Medicine? These are universals, shared by all human cultures. As I argued in thesis #22, Western medicine is simply our own ethnomedicine. We, like the people of any culture, believe our medicine to be the most effective and all others to be mere superstition, but this is mere ethnocentrism. The simple fact of the matter is that a shaman in the jungles of Peru has the same sort of success rate with his patients as a modern doctor in a good hospital. In thesis #24 I discussed the profundity of "primitive" art, easily on par with our own. For example, though unwritten, Pygmy songs have for millennia maintained a polyphonic complexity that Europe was unable to rival until the 14th century. Or is it knowledge? Surely, civilization has given us knowledge we would not otherwise have...? Again, not really; in thesis #23, I touched on some of the immense indigenous knowledge we dispensed with at the beginning of the civilized project. We've gradually worked our way back to about where we started, so the whole thing's something of a wash. Robert Wolff's Original Wisdom is the type of book I'd think Pop Occulture readers could appreciate, though I personally prefer David Abram's Spell of the Sensuous. [...] […] What is the “baby” we should be careful to not throw out here? Is it art? Medicine? These are universals, shared by all human cultures. As I argued in thesis #22, Western medicine is simply our own ethnomedicine. We, like the people of any culture, believe our medicine to be the most effective and all others to be mere superstition, but this is mere ethnocentrism. The simple fact of the matter is that a shaman in the jungles of Peru has the same sort of success rate with his patients as a modern doctor in a good hospital. In thesis #24 I discussed the profundity of “primitive” art, easily on par with our own. For example, though unwritten, Pygmy songs have for millennia maintained a polyphonic complexity that Europe was unable to rival until the 14th century. Or is it knowledge? Surely, civilization has given us knowledge we would not otherwise have…? Again, not really; in thesis #23, I touched on some of the immense indigenous knowledge we dispensed with at the beginning of the civilized project. We’ve gradually worked our way back to about where we started, so the whole thing’s something of a wash. Robert Wolff’s Original Wisdom is the type of book I’d think Pop Occulture readers could appreciate, though I personally prefer David Abram’s Spell of the Sensuous. […]

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By: Jason Godesky http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-7569 Jason Godesky Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:09:04 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-7569 Increasing complexity often means decreasing diversity. When those two are in conflict, I think it's complexity that must be sacrificed for diversity. Increasing complexity often means decreasing diversity. When those two are in conflict, I think it’s complexity that must be sacrificed for diversity.

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By: speedbird http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-7556 speedbird Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:22:38 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-7556 Interesting how the brief history of videogames has been one of increasing complexity and decreasing diversity. Interesting how the brief history of videogames has been one of increasing complexity and decreasing diversity.

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By: ChandraShakti http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-6555 ChandraShakti Sat, 25 Feb 2006 19:02:45 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/01/thesis-24-civilization-has-no-monopoly-on-art/#comment-6555 That depends on how one defines gain and loss. Within any particular forager grouping, there is likely to be a net loss of art forms. But across the spectrum of groups around the world, there is likely to be a net gain. The individuals who are creating video and electronic art now will not suddenly lose their articic impulses just because those media become unavailable. Most of them will express their artistic vision in another form instead. That depends on how one defines gain and loss. Within any particular forager grouping, there is likely to be a net loss of art forms. But across the spectrum of groups around the world, there is likely to be a net gain. The individuals who are creating video and electronic art now will not suddenly lose their articic impulses just because those media become unavailable. Most of them will express their artistic vision in another form instead.

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