Comments on: Alpha Dogs, Wolf Packs & the Wandering Free Families http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/ se wo were fi na wosan kofa a yenki Mon, 06 Jul 2009 01:26:19 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Michelle http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-180483 Michelle Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:46:19 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-180483 Another milan basher i see if you dont like the programme then ok but i dont see a reason for you to sit and judge, for every theory on dog training theres another that debunks it 1 way works for 1 dog another works for another and for all the people who reckon to know this about dogs and that unless you are a dog its all theory not fact you can only guess how the dog thinks and feels ect I have trained my dogs using the reward system (not the clicker) but also with my strong willed jack russel my vet alpha rolled him and u know what, within a second his behaviour changed 4 the better but he wasnt sad he was still happy no tail betwen the legs ect just more respectful of the vet so i wont say it doesnt work because ive seen it did Another milan basher i see if you dont like the programme then ok but i dont see a reason for you to sit and judge, for every theory on dog training theres another that debunks it 1 way works for 1 dog another works for another and for all the people who reckon to know this about dogs and that unless you are a dog its all theory not fact you can only guess how the dog thinks and feels ect I have trained my dogs using the reward system (not the clicker) but also with my strong willed jack russel my vet alpha rolled him and u know what, within a second his behaviour changed 4 the better but he wasnt sad he was still happy no tail betwen the legs ect just more respectful of the vet so i wont say it doesnt work because ive seen it did

]]> By: vetis http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-178551 vetis Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:09:39 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-178551 Having read Cesar's book, I think he's amazing in a lot of ways and his teachings have done much to aid in my understanding of dogs. That said, there are some things he is indeed incorrect about. many wolf experts and dog experts take issue with and make many wild claims about the dominance submission relationship, but they don't begin to understand it. I saw a special wherein the experts actually speculated that some of the wolves resented their position in the pack. I don't claim to know everything about wolves, or even close, but I've never seen evidence of actual resentment in them. Cesar has a good principle in that he trains the owner and not the dog. Too often we lose sight of the fact that as the human we are actually the inferior and broken element and the dog is in most cases just acting according to the patterns it was born to act in. all dogs are unique but all non human mammals are similar in the patterns they follow. their every action is dependable and predictable in ways that humans are not (I have studied human psychology as well, so don't call me on this). Cesar has put forth an excellent theory that many so called issues with domesticated dogs can be solved with more physical activity. I don't feel he is suggestion one exhausts their dog to the point that they are too tired to disobey or do much of anything, but rather he is suggesting that all mammals, humans included, are designed with a need for physical activity due to the survival value of such an inclination. at the very least such activity releases endorphins which creates a sensation of euphoria in mammals of any species. I also agree with Cesar that some degree of dominance is necessary in any relationship between two animals be they human and dog or any other. Cesar is very careful in his book to stress the sort of dominance he means, and he does actually refer to it as the sort of dominance a parent would have over a child. His show is another story, as the methods I see him use there rarely match his book very closely. I think what accounts for this discrepancy is that his show has limited time and his clients have little patience for a learning experience, and are rather looking for a quick fix. I feel Cesar doesn't care for some of the methods he sometimes has to use on his show because of the time constraints he is saddled with by his clients. I do feel that even in his book he does stress control a great deal and does not emphasize that the pack is indeed like a family sort of bond. With my own dog I do not obsess so much as Cesar does over dominance. I don't abide dangerous behaviors that would get my dog harmed in suburban life, but I do not pull him with a leash each time he walks away from me either. having watched real wolves and wold dogs as well, the alpha, though leading, does not necessarily walk directly ahead of the other wolves, just as a parent may keep watch of their child with their child ahead of them. the situation does vary however. I have never used force of any manner to get my dog to obey. The most I have ever needed to do is touch his side of muzzle so that he brings his attention back to me if he is distracted while walking. I don't use any other type of discipline on him and I have never really needed to. He doesn't show the slightest aggression toward other humans or other animals, of which he's interacted with many. I feel this would not be his natural state, but that the aggression portion of the instinct or frontal lobe is deactivated when it is deemed useless, or perhaps he takes his example from me. I have seen many domesticated dogs begin to act like their owners, and he is as mellow and accepting as I am. I feel aggression is a defense and he has perhaps never been in a situation that has warranted it's use. He seems to understand what it is, but he avoids other animals showing aggression. He is perhaps insecure for some reason, I have no idea what happened to him for the first year and a half of his life before he came to live with me. I digress however. Cesar's book has some value to it and it should not be dismissed, there are some things he does correctly and some things he still needs to learn. for myself, I have evolved past his philosophy and have taken from it what I found valuable. My understanding of dogs and of humans is a lifetime commitment and I may never know everything. Having read Cesar’s book, I think he’s amazing in a lot of ways and his teachings have done much to aid in my understanding of dogs. That said, there are some things he is indeed incorrect about. many wolf experts and dog experts take issue with and make many wild claims about the dominance submission relationship, but they don’t begin to understand it. I saw a special wherein the experts actually speculated that some of the wolves resented their position in the pack. I don’t claim to know everything about wolves, or even close, but I’ve never seen evidence of actual resentment in them. Cesar has a good principle in that he trains the owner and not the dog. Too often we lose sight of the fact that as the human we are actually the inferior and broken element and the dog is in most cases just acting according to the patterns it was born to act in. all dogs are unique but all non human mammals are similar in the patterns they follow. their every action is dependable and predictable in ways that humans are not (I have studied human psychology as well, so don’t call me on this). Cesar has put forth an excellent theory that many so called issues with domesticated dogs can be solved with more physical activity. I don’t feel he is suggestion one exhausts their dog to the point that they are too tired to disobey or do much of anything, but rather he is suggesting that all mammals, humans included, are designed with a need for physical activity due to the survival value of such an inclination. at the very least such activity releases endorphins which creates a sensation of euphoria in mammals of any species. I also agree with Cesar that some degree of dominance is necessary in any relationship between two animals be they human and dog or any other. Cesar is very careful in his book to stress the sort of dominance he means, and he does actually refer to it as the sort of dominance a parent would have over a child. His show is another story, as the methods I see him use there rarely match his book very closely. I think what accounts for this discrepancy is that his show has limited time and his clients have little patience for a learning experience, and are rather looking for a quick fix. I feel Cesar doesn’t care for some of the methods he sometimes has to use on his show because of the time constraints he is saddled with by his clients. I do feel that even in his book he does stress control a great deal and does not emphasize that the pack is indeed like a family sort of bond. With my own dog I do not obsess so much as Cesar does over dominance. I don’t abide dangerous behaviors that would get my dog harmed in suburban life, but I do not pull him with a leash each time he walks away from me either. having watched real wolves and wold dogs as well, the alpha, though leading, does not necessarily walk directly ahead of the other wolves, just as a parent may keep watch of their child with their child ahead of them. the situation does vary however. I have never used force of any manner to get my dog to obey. The most I have ever needed to do is touch his side of muzzle so that he brings his attention back to me if he is distracted while walking. I don’t use any other type of discipline on him and I have never really needed to. He doesn’t show the slightest aggression toward other humans or other animals, of which he’s interacted with many. I feel this would not be his natural state, but that the aggression portion of the instinct or frontal lobe is deactivated when it is deemed useless, or perhaps he takes his example from me. I have seen many domesticated dogs begin to act like their owners, and he is as mellow and accepting as I am. I feel aggression is a defense and he has perhaps never been in a situation that has warranted it’s use. He seems to understand what it is, but he avoids other animals showing aggression. He is perhaps insecure for some reason, I have no idea what happened to him for the first year and a half of his life before he came to live with me. I digress however. Cesar’s book has some value to it and it should not be dismissed, there are some things he does correctly and some things he still needs to learn. for myself, I have evolved past his philosophy and have taken from it what I found valuable. My understanding of dogs and of humans is a lifetime commitment and I may never know everything.

]]> By: timeLESS http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-177000 timeLESS Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:39:41 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-177000 I have lived with captive sleddogs (siberian huskies) in lapland and while there are stronger and weaker dogs and dogs with all kinds of different personalities, dogs that were calm and confident , dogs that were crazier daring etc, and fights sometimes broke out, there was in NO WAY an institutionalized / ritualized / authoritarian bullcr*p system and domination and THUS NOTHING to strive for. I do believe these are our own projections when we look at a tribe of dogs/wolves. The violence I've seen was purely incidental. Wish id found this place earlier I have lived with captive sleddogs (siberian huskies) in lapland and while there are stronger and weaker dogs and dogs with all kinds of different personalities, dogs that were calm and confident , dogs that were crazier daring etc, and fights sometimes broke out, there was in NO WAY an institutionalized / ritualized / authoritarian bullcr*p system and domination and THUS NOTHING to strive for. I do believe these are our own projections when we look at a tribe of dogs/wolves. The violence I’ve seen was purely incidental.

Wish id found this place earlier

]]> By: Hangover Mornings « Rugged Indoorsman http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-96452 Hangover Mornings « Rugged Indoorsman Mon, 07 May 2007 01:04:24 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-96452 [...] The way dogs are disciplined into an abusive family. Punished again and again until it loses all meaning or relation To their action, but rather to their PERSON. They learn a new mode of existence - Doing Nothing In the hope that this will spare them the next beating They are fully trained. They are submissive. This should sound familiar. We’ve all been kicked in our formative years. Over and over again with all reasons witheld. So we learn to bring our master’s slippers and to wag our tails And look on our own desires with deep suspicion and distaste. Just look how irate and dismissive the holders of power become When confronted by some creative impulse they have no control over or experience of And you will appreciate all the more these vents for their scarcity and import. And these power relationships are everywhere. Our gods are there to be loved and FEARED. We must follow their strict example to the letter Or be bitch-slapped again by their priests into the proper behaviours. We must SUBMIT. [link] [...] […] The way dogs are disciplined into an abusive family. Punished again and again until it loses all meaning or relation To their action, but rather to their PERSON. They learn a new mode of existence - Doing Nothing In the hope that this will spare them the next beating They are fully trained. They are submissive. This should sound familiar. We’ve all been kicked in our formative years. Over and over again with all reasons witheld. So we learn to bring our master’s slippers and to wag our tails And look on our own desires with deep suspicion and distaste. Just look how irate and dismissive the holders of power become When confronted by some creative impulse they have no control over or experience of And you will appreciate all the more these vents for their scarcity and import. And these power relationships are everywhere. Our gods are there to be loved and FEARED. We must follow their strict example to the letter Or be bitch-slapped again by their priests into the proper behaviours. We must SUBMIT. [link] […]

]]> By: Sarah Snyder http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-46814 Sarah Snyder Thu, 25 Jan 2007 06:55:09 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-46814 Consistancy should be the prominent word. Once you have the rank figured out wheather it be by gesture, stare downs, and a firm grasp, the dogs I've worked with relax. I don't see any hate or vicious thoughts racing through their minds. Dogs that have had a "taste" of being dominant tend to test more frequently than the dogs that are naturally on the submissive side. Once you have control of YOURSELF and the situation and consistantly handle your body language and read the dogs as well, they sit back and understand that YOU will not back down and you are more confident than the dog. Some behaviors Cesar explains sounds "rough" but it isn't until you see him work that you understand his true meaning. You don't know until you know. I've trained dogs ( not as many as Cesar) and have owned one wolf, I feel that I understand parts of canid behavior but my biggest asset is knowing how little I really know. Having the ability to know there is so much more to learn is more important than proving to people who is "right" Cesar is amazing in this capacity! He understands how to communicate without speaking. Training in silence is best for me, no distractions, no excuses. Consistancy should be the prominent word. Once you have the rank figured out wheather it be by gesture, stare downs, and a firm grasp, the dogs I’ve worked with relax. I don’t see any hate or vicious thoughts racing through their minds. Dogs that have had a “taste” of being dominant tend to test more frequently than the dogs that are naturally on the submissive side. Once you have control of YOURSELF and the situation and consistantly handle your body language and read the dogs as well, they sit back and understand that YOU will not back down and you are more confident than the dog. Some behaviors Cesar explains sounds “rough” but it isn’t until you see him work that you understand his true meaning. You don’t know until you know. I’ve trained dogs ( not as many as Cesar) and have owned one wolf, I feel that I understand parts of canid behavior but my biggest asset is knowing how little I really know. Having the ability to know there is so much more to learn is more important than proving to people who is “right”
Cesar is amazing in this capacity! He understands how to communicate without speaking. Training in silence is best for me, no distractions, no excuses.

]]> By: Jason Godesky http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-37475 Jason Godesky Mon, 18 Dec 2006 16:17:11 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-37475 Again, Cesar's treatment is predicated on the notion that since wild wolf packs have strict hierarchies and all behavior in such packs is about dominance, so, too, must all interactions with a domesticated dog be about dominance. It's Cesar's own logic that condemns him. If you want to make the argument that domestic dogs are nothing like wild wolves, that might justify his special brand of cruelty (though there's still the counter-example presented by <a href="http://www.puppyworks.com/speaker/dunbar.html" rel="nofollow">Ian Dunbar</a> to show that his is hardly the only way), but you would do so by first establishing that Cesar has no idea what he's talking about. On that, we'd be in agreement. Again, Cesar’s treatment is predicated on the notion that since wild wolf packs have strict hierarchies and all behavior in such packs is about dominance, so, too, must all interactions with a domesticated dog be about dominance. It’s Cesar’s own logic that condemns him. If you want to make the argument that domestic dogs are nothing like wild wolves, that might justify his special brand of cruelty (though there’s still the counter-example presented by Ian Dunbar to show that his is hardly the only way), but you would do so by first establishing that Cesar has no idea what he’s talking about. On that, we’d be in agreement.

]]> By: Anonymous http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-36302 Anonymous Sat, 16 Dec 2006 01:43:36 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-36302 So there's an example of the political projections going the other way, but still underlining the fact that observations of captive populations tell you more about captivity than the animal you're studying. And where's the only place we've ever observed real wolf hierarchy? In captivity. It's dog training based on the false premise that wolves have "alphas" I take issue with. So, if you want to make your dog a prison bitch, by all means, use Cesar's techniques. They're highly effective at that Jason you argue there is no ‘real wolf hierarchy’ that this is only found in captivity, and that Cesar’s method of dominance is unnatural. How would you describe the common house pet? Would you not say that dogs that live with us in a home environment, is an unnatural state sort of similar to wolves in captivity. And if dominate behaviour manifests in captivity well wouldn’t it be correct to say that dogs living with people in homes would begin to behave in a dominate fashion. I mean dogs are animals and in the wild they don’t have the issues that many ‘captive’ dogs with behavioural problems display because in essence the are free. Is living in a house and creating a pack with humans a different species a bit unnatural. Your argument would make more sense if you said wild pariah dogs don’t dominate one another but house pets do because they’re captive and isn’t that what we are seeing. . Why would you say that? Dogs are quite good at understanding that appropriate behavior is contextual Millions of dogs are put down ever year because of ‘dominate behaviour’ their owners can’t seem to manage. For a pack to work like a pack of wolves in captivity would they not need to form and follow a hierarchy. Milan says dogs in a natural setting don’t develop the neurotic behaviours house pets do. Dogs in captivity. You’re opinion has convinced me that it makes more sense to study wolves in captivity when relating to domesticated dogs, or using research on the hierarchy of wolves then by wolves in the wild. So there’s an example of the political projections going the other way, but still underlining the fact that observations of captive populations tell you more about captivity than the animal you’re studying.
And where’s the only place we’ve ever observed real wolf hierarchy? In captivity.

It’s dog training based on the false premise that wolves have “alphas” I take issue with.
So, if you want to make your dog a prison bitch, by all means, use Cesar’s techniques. They’re highly effective at that

Jason you argue there is no ‘real wolf hierarchy’ that this is only found in captivity, and that Cesar’s method of dominance is unnatural. How would you describe the common house pet? Would you not say that dogs that live with us in a home environment, is an unnatural state sort of similar to wolves in captivity. And if dominate behaviour manifests in captivity well wouldn’t it be correct to say that dogs living with people in homes would begin to behave in a dominate fashion. I mean dogs are animals and in the wild they don’t have the issues that many ‘captive’ dogs with behavioural problems display because in essence the are free. Is living in a house and creating a pack with humans a different species a bit unnatural. Your argument would make more sense if you said wild pariah dogs don’t dominate one another but house pets do because they’re captive and isn’t that what we are seeing.
.
Why would you say that? Dogs are quite good at
understanding that appropriate behavior is contextual

Millions of dogs are put down ever year because of ‘dominate behaviour’ their owners can’t seem to manage. For a pack to work like a pack of wolves in captivity would they not need to form and follow a hierarchy. Milan says dogs in a natural setting don’t develop the neurotic behaviours house pets do. Dogs in captivity. You’re opinion has convinced me that it makes more sense to study wolves in captivity when relating to domesticated dogs, or using research on the hierarchy of wolves then by wolves in the wild.

]]> By: Jason Godesky http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-30615 Jason Godesky Tue, 21 Nov 2006 20:41:50 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-30615 Why would you say that? Dogs are quite good at understanding that appropriate behavior is contextual. Why would you say that? Dogs are quite good at understanding that appropriate behavior is contextual.

]]> By: _Gi http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-30614 _Gi Tue, 21 Nov 2006 20:36:49 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-30614 Good questions. But its trickier with dogs. You can still function in civilized society as you are looking forward to an opportunity to rewild yourself and your band, but for a dog its almost impossible to maintain such a split personality. Good questions. But its trickier with dogs.
You can still function in civilized society as you are looking forward to an opportunity to rewild yourself and your band, but for a dog its almost impossible to maintain such a split personality.

]]> By: Jason Godesky http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-30610 Jason Godesky Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:14:20 +0000 http://anthropik.com/2006/11/alpha-dogs-wolf-packs-the-wandering-free-families/#comment-30610 Yes, it "works," depending on what your goal is. It's Millan's premise I was more interested in with this article, not its effect. Obviously, trauma "works" for creating domesticated animals. It works as effectively on dogs as it does on people. The question now is, if we're trying to rewild ourselves in human bands, shouldn't we also be working to rewild our dogs with us? Yes, it “works,” depending on what your goal is. It’s Millan’s premise I was more interested in with this article, not its effect. Obviously, trauma “works” for creating domesticated animals. It works as effectively on dogs as it does on people. The question now is, if we’re trying to rewild ourselves in human bands, shouldn’t we also be working to rewild our dogs with us?

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